International Feature: Hero

Is "Hero" truly a masterpiece or just a visually stunning puzzle? Join us as we dissect the 2002 Chinese film "Hero," which was introduced to U.S. audiences with the help of Quentin Tarantino in 2004. Despite its high regard among cinephiles, we share our candid, mixed feelings about the film. Listen as we praise the exceptional cinematography and Jet Li's captivating performance while also expressing our confusion over certain aspects of the film.

Our conversation delves into the challenges of connecting with "Hero's" complex narrative structure and multiple storytelling layers. We also highlight the film's visual beauty and deeper meanings, even as we navigate our struggles with its story structure and character motivations. As we share our final ratings, we ponder if "Hero" is a must-watch film, but first urge you to watch "Hero" before diving into our spoiler discussion at the end of the episode to form your own opinion on its artistic merits firsthand.

Letterbox'd Synopsis:  A defense officer, Nameless, was summoned by the King of Qin regarding his success of terminating three warriors.

🔻You can find all important links for the podcast over at https://linktr.ee/waitforitpodcast (which includes our brand new Patreon site!)🔺

🔻BACKGROUND MUSIC PROVIDED BY: Ocean by KV https://soundcloud.com/kvmusicprod  Free Download / Stream: http://bit.ly/2OCvpHU Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/a8ctDtA7OK8 — Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported  — CC BY 3.0 🔺 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to your go-to source for entertainment . Wait for it .

Speaker 2 0:05

Gaming . Wait for it Anime PLUS ULTRA .

Speaker 1 0:11

Mr Eric Almighty and Phil the Filipino .

Speaker 2 0:14

Yeah , they've got you covered and all you gotta do is wait for it . This is the Wait For it Podcast . Hey , everyone , welcome back to the Wait For it Podcast . I am your co-host , phil Smith , aka Phil the Filipino , and joining me , as always , is your other co-host , mr Eric Almighty . And Eric , we are here with our second episode of the month of August .

Speaker 2 0:48

Second episode of the month always means it is international feature time and this month we dove into a genre of film that I don't believe we really have talked about personally , talked about personally . You know , we'll talk about some other films in this type of , in this genre , that , of course , had a major , major impact on pop culture and film , and this actually is one of those movies . Eric , I think when you talk to cinephiles , a lot of people bring up this movie . I actually will shout out our buddy , caleb , formerly of Level Playing Field , who did recommend this film to me because I was talking about wanting to see more of Wenwu in the Shang-Chi movie and of course , that led to talking about , you know , tony Leung and his fantastic performance in that and obviously he is a incredibly decorated actor and wanting to see more of him . This was a film that came across my radar , which then led us to where we are now .

Speaker 2 1:45

So , eric , we're going to talk about that here this afternoon . We both watched this today . We're recording this on monday evening of august 12th , so we we watched it literally just a couple hours ago . It's fresh in our minds and , um , we'll see how this goes . There are going to be I feel like we are going to upset film tiktok film , twitter film social media , but we are going to be I feel like we are going to upset film TikTok film , twitter film social media , but we are going to talk about at least I know I'm going to talk about what good there is here , but also it seems like we're we walked away from this just a little bit confused .

Speaker 1 2:16

Yeah , so . So with international feature , it's interesting because we are going to try to avoid spoilers until the end . We'll probably jump into that part at the end because international feature , we do want to put a spotlight on these movies and I do think that this movie , I could understand why someone would recommend it . Phil , I did not know , I may have missed , I may have missed it when you said it , uh , about a month or two when we talked about this film . Uh , we were gonna do it in july and ultraman rising took president . So we we talked about this in like June and I did not recall you saying that Caleb had recommended this .

Speaker 1 2:49

So sorry in advance , caleb , there are things to definitely dissect in this film . But yeah , phil , I'm going to be honest with you . This is we've done a lot of international films this year . Again , once a month , this one going to be interesting to see where we both rank it , but I'm glad to see that it's not just gonna be me on the critique side , uh , so that's definitely a little bit comforting , uh , and we'll console each other as the internet rips us apart because , again , I totally get it . Just looking at this movie , um , I can definitely tell there is some appeal to those cinephiles , those hardcore film fans of film definitely get that , but I guess we're not that , so we will see . There was good in this movie , though . I'm really excited to talk about it and again , we'll keep it spoiler free to really give our objective thoughts before we go to spoilers .

Speaker 2 3:42

Totally recommend you check out the film , if you haven't already , before listening to the full episode yeah , so if you do want to find us on social media and tell us how wrong you are or how wrong we are sorry , uh , you can check the show notes of this episode . You'll find everything that you need and I'll give you a reminder and a breakdown of everything . Uh , that is uh that you'll need to follow the way for a podcast at the end of this episode . But , eric , let's jump into Hero . This film was initially released in 2002 in China and then , because of a kind of a campaign by Quentin Tarantino , it made its way over to the US in 2004 . I'll give you a very quick synopsis here . I'll actually go with the IMDb synopsis .

Speaker 2 4:23

This month , a defense officer nameless was summoned by the king of Shoot . I forgot to look this up . I believe it's . Is it Jin ? I believe the Q is pronounced kind of like a CH , if I recall correctly . Again , you guys will correct me because that's probably wrong , but yeah , regarding his success of terminating three warriors .

Speaker 2 4:43

And you know , obviously the big hook in this is it's Jet Li . Eric , I don't know what your experience is with Jet Li films . I have not seen too many of them . However , he is always kind of in that like pantheon of action stars . You know , international stars that have just incredible filmography , and you know , whenever he pops up , I'm really never disappointed when it comes to , you know , action , choreography and all of that . And you know , following this film and usually this is a detriment , and it was . I don't necessarily think it's a detriment in this case . I didn't want to look more into this just because of , again , how beloved this is within the film community . So I did do some additional research as far as going on YouTube , seeing what people had to say , and I'm glad that one of the videos I found pointed out . Really , what I think we'll probably both agree on is the cinematography in this is outstanding . The cinematography in this is outstanding . Now , there is so much when it comes to the different colors and that represent different feelings and different time frames and things that you really wouldn't even necessarily notice , probably on a first watch . So being able to go back and seeing somebody explain that better , that has a better understanding of films like this .

Speaker 2 6:04

Now , these are Usha films , which is very similar to what , like Crouching Tiger , hidden Dragon was . Now this movie came out , I think four years after Crouching Tiger completely took over the world . I've never seen that movie , eric , so maybe that's something we should have started with . I don't know if you've seen it , but that's where we were at in the world , you know , 2002 , 2004 , where that style of movie , as well as like the Matrix and all those other movies , were coming out that were popularizing the style of fighting that is in here and a lot of the fight choreography also very , very cool , but again , just something that I'm not necessarily used to or have been exposed to , exposed to . But , eric , I guess we'll touch on that first because , again , I really loved the juxtaposition of colors and the meaning of who was telling the story , and you know what might be a little bit of truth , what might be fiction and also what might be a little bit of a mixture of both .

Speaker 1 6:54

Yeah . So I mean , just for me , off the bat , this is not my typical type of movie . Crouching Tiger , hidden Dragon I've seen it , but not like seen it . Seen it so like . What I mean is I was probably in my teens , it was on TV and I'm sure I've watched it . I definitely recall scenes from it , but have I sat down and really watched it ? No , and films within that genre I've always appreciated and we'll kind of get into that , philil , because there are some similarities to like a genre or a type of international film that I love . That kind of mimics a little bit of what you see in this film at times , but it just , uh , was never my cup of tea , um , and not in a negative way , just never really ended up on my radar .

Speaker 1 7:38

As far as jet lee is concerned , there are several films , phil , that I could kind of recall watching . The One is definitely a film that I've seen , unleashed , which is a film with him , morgan Freeman and Bob Hoskins . That one came out of nowhere . I looked at the filmography . I was like I remember that one and then War with him and Jason Statham . I mean you have to see a movie with Jet Li and Jason Statham . So those are just a couple . Phil , I feel like maybe for better or worse , you kind of end up as a Jackie Chan kid or a Jet Li kid . I've never really seen someone who's like , yeah , both . So it always feels like most people kind of went to Jackie Chan . But Jet Li absolutely holds his own and he definitely brings a presence to the role in this film that I think is needed . Uh , it definitely kind of that star power , if you would . But I mean , phil , the cast is kind of sick . I mean Donnie Yen is in here as well . So , uh , so many great people in this .

Speaker 1 8:44

I think for me we focus on the cinematography so much because it is beautiful to look at . This is a film that I could definitely understand . If you needed to create a PowerPoint or a presentation around and really impress some people , you could definitely do that . This is absolutely a movie that I think , with its undertones , you could absolutely do a deep dive into . Chinese , like bureaucracy and some of the things that are going on there , the themes of war and love , all those type of things . Under the surface , this movie has quite a bit to dig into . We'll talk about my gripes about surface level stuff that I am missing . But I think there's a lot to actually fill dive into this movie and I can at least respect that upon multiple watches and a little bit of digging , I think there's some real things about this movie that you won't appreciate the first time , that unfortunately we're just not gonna get . So this is fresh eyes on this movie .

Speaker 2 9:50

There are going to be aspects of this movie we miss and I think that's an interesting aspect of the movie itself yeah , and bringing it back to some of the shots that are in this film are pretty breathtaking , especially considering this is 2002 . There's no drones , you know . There's not this type of equipment that is available to filmmakers now like that . That's not happening here . A lot of the location , a lot of the shots , eric , were shot on location at different places in china . Now , the set , as far as the uh , you know , the big like palace or whatever that is . That that's that was all built on a set , as well as , uh , you know a few other things , but all the things , like in terms of being in the forest and out in the desert and all those types of locations , the uh , the location with the water scene on the lake , that's all shot on location as well . So , again , really , really stunning . When you think about when this movie came out I mean talking about over 20 years ago and then the way that they presented the story , I think is something that I I've certainly seen before . I couldn't give you specific examples , but I did think I enjoyed the story being presented in the way that it was . Now , execution wise , I think that's probably where things were definitely a little bit lost , but I like stories that start at the end . That's definitely worked in plenty of other places before .

Speaker 2 11:05

So what did you think about ? Again the fight choreography , because this is not something that we have really dove into when it comes to Chinese filmmaking . And again the specific type of Chinese film , usha , which again is what it's called . So what did you think about that ? Was it a little bit too much over the top ? It kind of strange , like , where we fall on these kind of things , because obviously an anime , something like that , works so well , but then when you see like a live action person doing it , you know it's kind of like all right , what's happening here and and what are we doing ?

Speaker 1 11:37

no , totally , and listen . We like to go to the movies and see people in spandex fight with laser beams shooting out of their eyes . You know what I mean . Like we love superhero mcu films , like all that stuff and comparable to that film . I one of . My second favorite movie of all time is rrr , like the ridiculous stunts that are done in that movie it's all real are so over the top . No , definitely it's so real , which is impressive , number one . But number two , it's so over the top that , like you just enjoy it .

Speaker 1 12:08

But I think we're like in indian films , uh , or you know , telegu films specifically that we've seen more recently . That's kind of done for that comedic effect , even if there are serious undertones . This is just straight serious . So because of that it is a little hard to kind of like distance yourself from reality and I think the choreography is at its best in close hand-to-hand combat . Um , I think of a film like the raid phil , uh , an international film that we've done where that close hand-to-hand and some of the weaponary things that are being done , that close amazing in international films specifically . So from a kung fu aspect and like what this movie is like , you know it kind of falls under that genre , I'm sure again , specific terms for that for you movie buffs but that genre I appreciate it .

Speaker 1 13:01

I definitely think it's an art style in a sense , but I don't necessarily know that it's my cup of tea . The fighting was most interesting when we weren't flying through the air in slow-mo , you know , doing twirls , those types of things . And again , was it okay every now and then , a hundred percent , but it happened in almost every fight and it happened almost multiple times in every fight . So , knowing that this is the genre , I think I've got a better idea of what I'm getting myself into . I thought I knew and then it was done a little bit more than I expected . So I was still a little unclear on , I guess , how much is in that choreography and I would love to be educated behind it , but I don't . I think there's a reason you don't see movies like this anymore today , if that makes sense .

Speaker 2 13:49

Yeah , it's certainly not my thing either , and as far as the incredibly positive reviews that are all over the internet , you really don't have to look very far . It seems like everybody that is commenting on this is a big fan of that , and you know and this is something it just certain is isn't necessarily , you know , our bag , and that that's unfortunate , because you obviously want to be able to open yourself . That's the whole point of the series , right , it's opening yourself up to a genre of film or a genre of filmmaking or presentation that you just never , never seen before , and I already knew , just from the little bit of what I knew about crouching tiger , that that wasn't necessarily going to be my thing . Now to bring it back to , unfortunately , I I hate to bring this back to marvel . There are some of those moments in shang chi that do I I believe and correct me if I'm wrong guys that do implement some usha stuff in shang chi , but it is , it's's , very limited and at the base level , right , eric , you're talking about grounded , hand-to-hand fighting . That's up close and you know , you can see everything happening . Obviously , here in Hero there's a lot of sword fighting , a lot of swordplay and everything like that , and it just it's not appealing to me as breathtaking as it is , and I'm sure I I really love , would love to see a deep dive of this and see how they . I'm sure it would be fascinating to see how they actually filmed those scenes , but just execution wise and actually watching it play out was just not my thing .

Speaker 2 15:19

So , um , to transition into maybe with some of the things , like you're talking about , eric's surface level as far as story goes , again , this style of storytelling works very well . We've seen it plenty of times . But when there are so many different versions of the story and I'm you know how big I am on structure and structure and I was struggling here at points in this film and you know you're getting one story and then you're getting two stories within one story it was like an inception style story where something else is happening and then the truth maybe we're not 100 sure . Uh , that's where it . It kind of lost me and and I hate coming onto the internet and saying this because this is what everybody is praising in all of these reviews , especially on Letterboxd but was that your gripe ? Is that at least where the gripe started ? Because there's a story within a story and then there's a different one . That could be true , but maybe not . I don't know . I don't even know where to start .

Speaker 1 16:21

There's a dude disguised as a dude playing another dude , yeah , so I hate the story structure . So I've been waiting to just throw out that little bullet . There we go . I hate the story structure . This movie doesn't and I get .

Speaker 1 16:38

Maybe that's not the point of the movie and again , there's so much beneath the surface to dig into if you're interested in that type of thing . The movie is pretty and it has deep meaning . I can get that based off of and I did this on YouTube pulled up just like a montage of clips , and I got that message from the montage of clips . An hour and a half later I got the same message , very pretty , deep messaging . So I just feel like there's not much more to it and the way the characters are , what their motivations are a lot of that's not really explored . The amount of times that people fake die in this movie because you don't know what the real story is also like lowered the stakes to the ending that we get being unsatisfactory . I understand from a surface level , at least in that part , what the ending is like , supposed to signify , and they basically put that text on the screen , but it just didn't hit for me , like I just didn't understand these characters motivations , why they were really doing the things they were doing . They would get close to explaining it or they would say , like a generic statement which will , I'm sure we'll talk about in the spoiler section , but it would never really be broached or touched again , and that really bothered me .

Speaker 1 17:58

This movie being an hour and a half film , uh , I definitely am glad I didn't have to sit through more of it , but it felt like something was missing . You know we complain about exposition in movies . Maybe this movie needed some exposition , some world building . I also think the structure of the story , some things could have been moved around , specifically regarding the king and an attempted assassination which we'll get into spoilers about , the king and an attempted assassination which we'll get into spoilers about . I really think that whole thing should have probably been the start of the movie , to at least give us like a base of what we're dealing with .

Speaker 1 18:32

Regarding what the movie is about , uh , it felt like the movie was like doing reveal after reveal , twist after twist , but it was more . It thought it was more clever than it was and maybe that's harsh , harsh , but that's ultimately how I walked away when the credits rolled . I will say I was very frustrated from a story and plot perspective and again , this may not be my cup of tea or my jam , because I'm the type of dude that I can only suspend my belief for so long if there's nothing else to grip onto , and that's ultimately where I was free falling at here is what I would like to know if you know this does end up in the hands of film talk and film instagram or wherever it may be .

Speaker 2 19:12

I would generally like to know , is the obsession of this and is the praise of this which it does deserve , because there are a lot of things that this does very , very well ? Are you simply looking at it because of the stunning cinematography , the set pieces , the fight , choreography ? Is it really just that ? Because I would struggle for you to tell me that this is a top-tier story . I would struggle to believe you when you said that to me . Yeah , the motivations I'm glad you brought that up , that's , that's a really good point are all over the place , like why does tony leung's character feel this way ?

Speaker 2 19:53

Why does he have that change of heart ?

Speaker 2 19:55

And maybe that's something that I just missed .

Speaker 2 19:57

But when I'm a little underwhelmed by what's going on and you know you can't look away in this movie , you have to pay attention because it's in sub , so it's not like I'm doing other things , I'm what I'm paying attention from beginning to end . I would like to know are you giving , are you heaping praise on this film because it is so beautifully shot , because it is kind of a marvel to have come out in 2002 , you know what I mean , and and obviously a lot of campaigning needed to happen in order for it to come over here . Quentin Tarantino lent his name to the film in order to draw audiences in , and it was nominated , eric , for Best International Film at the 75th or Best Foreign Language Film at the 75th Academy Awards in 2003 . So that's the conversation I would like to have , because , again , you would struggle language film at the 75th Academy Awards in 2003 . So that's the conversation I would like to have , because , again , you would struggle to convince both of us that this is a , you know , an S ? Tier story , when it's simply not .

Speaker 1 20:58

No , I agree with that , phil . We'll talk about the change of heart . And because you did not miss it , because I was looking for it , I literally was like are you , are you kidding me ? We'll go there . That's one of my my spoiler topics for people that love this film like I . Just I get it like it is beautiful to look at and there are elements you know from a cultural standpoint . Maybe there was something you really related to you , you like this type of film and it's your bag , like that makes a lot of sense if that's the case .

Speaker 1 21:31

I think from a general audience perspective and , phil , you mentioned this , like you mentioned this being kind of a pop culture thing I've never heard anybody talk about this movie ever and I don't want to say I'm in the most movie talk circles , but we have a pretty diverse group between the podcast and conventions and people we talk to . This movie's never once , when we say we like international films , until now never come up . So I'm just saying again , it's not like we have a plethora of people saying , wow , this is one of the best movies . Now , if you find it as a top five international film or a top five karate kung fu , you know movie fine , you know fine . But other than that , like I just don't see how people can defend this from the standpoint that it's an absolute must watch . Again , difference of opinions . But is this movie really an absolute must watch ? Does everyone have to see it and like it ? I don't think so . I feel like there are movies with stronger arguments out there . I wouldn't die on this hill for hero .

Speaker 2 22:35

No way , no , sir , no how yeah , and we'll talk about it when it comes to our grades and I'll let you guys know where this lands in terms of other international features , as , uh , you know as far as my letterboxd list , but , eric , I mean , is there anything else you want , uh , you want to mention before we just transition , you know , into talking freely about the story , because I don't really have too much else again , I'm not going to sit here and lambast this film , uh , as some again as a disaster . It's certainly not that . But when we are just so , we're so story heavy when it comes to the types of films that we are fans of , uh , you know , you kind of get , you guys kind of know where we stand now . So , uh , are you ready to transition into that free ? Uh , speak when it comes to the plot yeah .

Speaker 1 23:24

So the the thing I would say is I'd be very curious , you know , before our audience , before they drop off , if you haven't seen the movie , you know how has this been from a critical standpoint , from a rating standpoint . We like to throw out those letterboxd scores and rotten tomatoes . So while you're kind of looking at that , phil , the only thing I'll mention is that this movie was nominated for a foreign language film . Here are the other ones that are here .

Speaker 1 23:47

Again , none of the movies I've ever heard of so Nowhere in Africa won that year , according to the Oscars website , el Crimen del Padre , amaro . Then there was the man Without a Past and Zeus , and so Again , I'm not going to say we knew a lot of foreign films back then , but no films I've ever really heard mentioned elsewhere . So when we say it's nominated for an Oscar , all due respect probably deserved for that era , for that year , and maybe this movie doesn't really age . Well , I will tell you , phil , you mentioned sub . We need to have a conversation because I thought I could rent it . I struggled to rent it , so I had to watch it on Pluto in dub with commercials , so that did not help my experience . So when my grade comes out . Just know , there is a half star deducted for that and I can't undo that and I'm not going to watch this movie a second time to undo that I watched it on Prime .

Speaker 2 24:49

You didn't rent it on Prime .

Speaker 1 24:51

Prime made me rent . I looked , I checked it . There was like you know how Amazon does that thing where there's multiple versions of a movie . Yeah , so there's like multiple tiles . There wasn't Every tile . I pulled up said audio English Watch on Pluto . Now here's my other question . I was on my TV , were you on your phone .

Speaker 2 25:09

No , I was on my fire stick .

Speaker 1 25:12

Oh , then I don't know Because on my phone , midway through the movie , I was getting so annoyed On my phone , midway through the movie I was getting so annoyed Midway through my movie I checked and I was not liking the movie . So I was like do I really want to pay $3 to watch it from my TV to my phone ? Now , no , but on my phone it did let me and I just didn't go with that option because it was too late . So yeah , that's totally weird , totally weird , interesting .

Speaker 2 25:33

Yeah , I was able to watch it just fine on Amazon Prime , so that's strange . But yeah , as we mentioned , this is , if you just do a quick search of Hero Movie 2002 , you will get just smacked in the face with heaps and heaps of praise and that is reflected in its Rotten Tomatoes and its Letterboxd score Rotten Tomatoes 94% . Certified Fresh Rotten Tomatoes score 87% Audience score and Eric over . On Letterboxd it has an average star rating of 4 , which again did not surprise me because of the way that it is talked about . And listen , we've had Caleb on and Caleb is a film he has a degree in , like film , so he looks at these things a lot different than than we do .

Speaker 2 26:27

I gave this strictly , I think , probably out of respect and also again because of the things that it accomplished when it comes to the cinematography and everything like that . I gave this a bare minimum of two and a half Because I felt like it was disrespectful to go any lower than that because of what it has achieved . But yeah , I definitely wouldn't have been a two and a half if I had to watch it on my phone , so I can certainly see where maybe your score is going , but again , it feels like it is a slap in the face to this because so many of you love this . But if I ultimately didn't enjoy the actual story of the movie which is why we watch movies how can I give it ? Because I'm never .

Speaker 2 27:11

I don't ever want to watch this again . I don't . I'm not going to recommend it to people , especially that are people , people that are in our circles , eric , that are just casual watches of film , watchers of film . I'm not going to tell them to sit down and watch this . I'll probably just tell them to . If you really are curious about it , watch this YouTube video about why the you know why the moods fit this color and how they told this part of the story and all of that , and that's why it's such a triumph of a film . But I can't give it any higher than that yeah .

Speaker 1 27:41

So you guys know my my kind of philosophy . I will remind you here because it is broken for this movie . I typically say wherever my movie lands , wherever it lands on my rating scale , you have about a point up or a point down for us to have a realistic conversation , any more than that , and we are just having two completely different opinions . Well , unfortunately , this movie doesn't fit that logic , because I do understand if you absolutely loathe this film and I also understand if you absolutely love this film , like I can see elements that would lead you to saying this movie is a five out of five . You're wrong , but I can understand how you got there . Phil , this movie's a two . I could not give it a two and a half . Again . I watched it , unfortunately with an English dub , with commercials . The highest I could imagine it going up without those things , and or a rewatch is a two and a half , because this movie is stunning for the year it came out . There are elements here I can tell . There are underlying themes that can really pull at people's heartstrings , maybe connect with , depending on who you are .

Speaker 1 28:53

But this movie wasn't made for me . I'm not the target audience and this is not my niche , so I cannot give it less than a two for those reasons . But I'm not going target audience and this is not my niche . So I cannot give it less than a two for those reasons . But I'm not going to give it more than a two . My heart's telling me after watching the movie it is a two . I typically like to sleep on it before we do these types of things , phil . So maybe it bumps up two and a half , but once again , just to beat it home , I can't imagine it ever going higher . And again , if you're in the fours or five here , like normally , I wouldn't agree with you . We would just be too far apart . But for this movie , this is that rare exception , I will say probably my least favorite international film we've done on this series . Uh , and that's probably bar none .

Speaker 2 29:36

So this is now officially the shining of the international feature series for me okay , well , that does kind of make sense because we really love the cinematography of the shining and what it means in terms of film history . So , unfortunately , that kind of tracks to give you guys an idea of international features . As far as where I ranked this , it is ranked above Belle Bahubali and the Boy and the Heron , because you guys know how I feel about that . And it is ranked above bell bahubali and the boy in the heron because you guys know how I feel about that . Uh , and it is ranked below the host and all quiet on the western front . So it's ranked 18th out of 21 . Now , remember , some of these international features we watch are television shows , so they're not on here , which is why they are only 21 . But that's where it currently ranks as of right now . So I would still even and I really don't like host , like , if you guys remember , last year's episode of a national feature .

Speaker 2 30:22

I did not really enjoy that movie . In fact I have it at a three , but I , going back to it , I'd probably lower that to like a two and a half because I again have no desire to watch that film , especially when you have Bong Joon-ho's you know filmography available , available to you . Uh , the host is definitely not the one that I would pick , but that's where it lands right now . Um , again , eric , it did not surprise me that the , the reviews , that um , uh , the scores that this thing has are as high as they are . So , yeah , let's transition to talking freely about the story , because what I alluded to earlier and it is not donnie Yen's character but Tony Leung's character when they talk about how and the Emperor does allude to this assassination attempt earlier in the film , and you do get to see it , you know , I honestly would have liked to see more of them , like storming the you know the palace and taking on 3000 men just two of them , like again , I can .

Speaker 1 31:21

I know that there's something somebody's going to say to combat it , but just two of them , dude . I haven't seen this type of inadequacy since those guards and wolf walkers Like Jesus Christ , dude , I just don't understand . It was just and I was going to let it go , phil , that should have been the opening of the movie , like you should have opened the movie with that . Just let me see the craziness from the get go , just kind of shock value me at the beginning . Let me see this near assassination attempt . I like the fight in the green room .

Speaker 1 31:54

I thought that was all really cool . You get to see colors right off the bat there and their use of colors . I would have loved to see that at the beginning of the movie and then maybe kind of fast forward to that point where Jet Li is talking to the King and the King had just explained what that you know what his point of view was . Uh , from that happening , these two people stormed the , the , the King , and almost killed him , right , um , so that's what I mean with placement . This movie thought it was doing something clever , but I felt like there are better ways to utilize that . That was probably my from a timeline perspective . If I could go back and change something about the movie for the betterment , I would have done . That . Wouldn't have helped very much , but I definitely would have done that well , also keep in mind that this is a .

Speaker 2 32:37

It's a , a story being told in the in the way that , like a legend , is being told you know what ?

Speaker 1 32:44

I mean .

Speaker 2 32:44

So I'm sure it wasn't just two people store , you know storming the , the capital city , but when they tell the story , however many years down the line , but they show us that to explain why his character doesn't want to kill the king and do you know , what you didn't miss , why he wanted , why he didn't , why he spared the king .

Speaker 1 33:05

I was phil , I was locked in . I was locked in . This was the first day . I was like , oh , he doesn't want to kill the king . Interesting , he literally says I don't want to kill him or I'm going to kill you , don't touch him . They do the flashback and at the end of the flashback he says don't kill the king . He just doesn't explain . He doesn't explain a single thing . He just says again do not kill the king . There's no explain explanation . He goes back to the same statement and then they move on to whatever . The next thing they want to hit is so , yeah , like I get there , I the concept , but like there was literally in the place that it was put . It was put there to show us him doing that . There was no payoff to that action . And again , it's a huge driving factor to him in this and the chick he's with flying snow , burning tower I don't know what their names are .

Speaker 2 33:58

Okay , now you're getting disrespectful . Now you're . Now you're getting disrespectful , now you're . Now you're floating into burning towers , wild um can't say that too soon .

Speaker 1 34:07

So I uh , yeah , so anyway . And then they get . They get into it because they let the king go a second time , or you know it all leads up to that , and then they end up dying , so like it's just anticlimactic for those reasons , that's . That's one example of these characters , not their choices not making sense , and again I'm left to determine what's real and what's not . So even in real or fake realities , none of it's making sense . I don't understand these characters any better . So it's not really about learning truth versus not . It's more so within the lies . Is there anything about these characters that I can take to understand them better ? The answer to that was no , and if I miss something obvious , then I miss something . But I just started getting frustrated at that point , from a filming perspective , the way they cut this thing up .

Speaker 2 35:00

And I like the story beat that Nameless is trying to trick the king and has actually partnered with these assassins . If you had left it at that and then not continue to go into a subplot within a subplot and then continuing to go down that rabbit hole , I think that is fine , you know , because I was like , oh , they were working together and they actually and this guy is such a great swordsman that he knows how that he is able to do to pull this off and not kill somebody . That intrigues me . But again , if you're going to tell me that in that moment , tony Leung's character , who is , uh , he's Broken Sword , if in that moment you you tell me that Broken Sword has now seen the king's vision as to why he needs to conquer and bring together all the lands , you gotta give me a reason as to why he comes to that conclusion , because it just happens and then they leave and and that's it , you know so , and then they do the same exact thing with gently later right .

Speaker 2 36:04

It's just a repeat , and again no explanation . Well , I mean , there's not . It's not necessarily an explanation , but he has spoken with broken sword about and I say spoken very lightly , very , very lightly , because they do speak he said our land don't do it . And yeah , the words , our land , and , and you know the calligraphy and all of that comes into play but culturally , culturally , it sounds like that's more of a cultural thing right , possibly so like if , if you're somebody , that that means something to .

Speaker 1 36:31

Because they mentioned that in the text at the end of the movie that the great wall is built from this , this emperor , to protect the people and even though thousands of years pass , the people in that land call it our land , right , so I get that . That's where I feel bad , because I'm just not the target audience , because that's not enough for me as a general audience member . Sitting here and trying to understand the plot , be entertained , all of those things digest the information in front of me . Like it's just not enough from a film perspective . In my opinion , I shouldn't have to have that background or that understanding to say , oh well , that's good enough . Um , and this movie again does that .

Speaker 1 37:14

Throughout the film , jet Li's character , his family's massacred , that's it , that's all we know . We don't know nothing else about him . He just kind of says it in a line you killed my family . I'm Indigo Montoya , you killed my family and Like you know what I mean . Like that that had more backstory than what Jet Li's character did . You get what I'm saying ? Like it just there's , there's nothing , there's nothing to cling onto for these characters to say I relate , I understand , I'm invested in your journey and your end point . If something happens to you like I just did , I can't remember a movie where I didn't care about a single character going in and coming out of the film .

Speaker 2 37:58

Yeah , and it was certainly a real bummer because , again wanting to explore more of Tony Leung's filmography , it is a bummer that this is kind of where we started out . Now I'm still open to diving into these , not necessarily Usha films because , as we have stated , that's just not something that we are interested in in terms of a genre , but in terms of being able to see what Tony Leung was able to do in a Marvel film which , let's be honest , there are pretty surface level all around . I am still very open to seeing his performances elsewhere , just maybe not in this style of filmmaking or storytelling , because obviously , eric , he pulled us in in the you know the limited amount of time that he had in that , you know in Shang-Chi . So I know obviously there is something there and people were over the moon that he was making his debut as far as , like American films go within the MCU and he's one of the few , I think , probably international stars that they have not wasted . When you look at the mcu in general and that's not just international stars you look at the cast of the eternals , so , being an entirety , an entire missed opportunity . So , although I will say the eternals is beginning love on social media .

Speaker 2 39:14

I am thinking about going back and re-watching it . I don't think that my my opinion will change , but I am going to go back and probably re-watch it here pretty soon . But , um , I'm getting off topic here . But yeah , it was , um , it was a bummer because , again , I was pretty excited to watch this and , uh , you know , every once in a while you just have one of those that that missed the mark , um , and you know , I'm still glad that we we watched it because of where it exists within film circles . But , once again , we'll not revisit this , nor will I recommend it to uh , to other people yeah , yeah , I'm right there with you .

Speaker 1 39:48

I think that's uh , that's really all we can say at this point without continuing to rip into the movie . And I'll say it again I've been harsh , but it's just not my thing , just not our thing , uh , so just be respectful . Back , I guess . Uh or not , totally a choice , uh , but no one will ever hear the 47 minute mark of whatever this episode .

Speaker 2 40:13

No one will ever hear it so just continue to rip into eric about his game of thrones .

Speaker 1 40:18

Uh , takes please yeah , I'm already getting , I'm already getting dragged and I'm loving it , loving the hate , uh . But yeah , to the three people who saw hero and liked it , um , okay , that's not true , that is definitely not the case .

Speaker 2 40:33

And and it has 11,000 five-star reviews , 12,000 4.5 reviews , 27,000 four-star reviews . So that is where .

Speaker 1 40:45

Is that almost , that's almost 50,000 people , dude , I can't imagine that . That many people , yeah , nobody that we know , but Nobody that we know .

Speaker 1 40:55

Yeah , but that's a lot other than caleb . Sorry caleb , that's a lot of people . Yeah , sorry caleb , if you , for some reason , you're still here through the pain , we appreciate it . But yeah , we did warn you guys in the beginning . Uh , sorry , it went this way uh , but yeah , that's uh . So I feel like we're pretty much at the end . Uh , I don't think , spoiler wise , there's much more without again continuing to rip into the film , um , but I'm sure there's something that will come up randomly uh , through it . We did talk about the fighting and stuff again , I think , uh , I think that was pretty much touched on . So , yeah , nothing else . If you don't have anything else , I think we can uh , give people a break from this hatred and maybe have them look forward to some future episodes or past episodes of the podcast where we're a little more positive , like top gun america .

Speaker 2 41:44

Yeah that's true . Yeah , I was gonna say I don't know , man , because we're talking about college football 25 next week and I have drafts as we get ready to talk about that . Oh my god , so we'll see what happens . Uh , this may this started off so positively , uh , with gay top gun , and now we're here with uh , with a hero not going the way that we wanted it .

Speaker 1 42:07

We will see a quick recap , a quick recap of our , of our last like 30 , maybe 45 days .

Speaker 2 42:15

Lego Ninjago . Lego Ninjago .

Speaker 1 42:18

Which was your fault . No , I understand and looking back , I feel like that's where it all went downhill . We recovered with Ultraman Rising , but then we went into Sea of Thieves . That one's on you . That one's on you .

Speaker 2 42:30

No , I feel like we equally wanted to play that pretty bad for years .

Speaker 1 42:34

That's fair . But I mean you also made Jordan buy the game .

Speaker 2 42:37

so she bought it . No , no , no , no , no , no . She made a choice to not get it on game pass . That was on her , okay .

Speaker 1 42:43

Uh , we had a great episode with the cheese . You should check that out . Creator spotlight , uh , and we thought we recovered with Top Gun and the Cheese . But nope , hero and , like I said , it sounds like , like Phil said , sounds like there might be a mixed bag of next week's episode . So Gafiltha comes with on board at the end of the month . Fingers crossed , we come in with him in a good mood .

Speaker 2 43:09

I also have our what Did I Miss ? Guest lined up . Eric doesn't know who they are , but it's going to be fun .

Speaker 1 43:16

I'm scared , but yeah , phil , what do the people have to look forward to as we wrap up this episode ? Nothing .

Speaker 2 43:23

It's an endless wasteland , like the Borderlands movie , oh God . But no , you have plenty to look forward to here at the WayForward Podcast and you can find everything that you need in the link tree link in the show notes of this episode . We're a little over a month away from ocala comic-con , and while that is an event that eric and I take a little bit of a back seat and we work more on the facility level , uh , when it comes to uh that , we will still be there and you should still be there , because there are a ton of really great guests as well as panels and and all that . So make sure you check that out in Ocala . You can also find all the rest of our content . In that Linktree link .

Speaker 2 43:59

You'll find all of our episodes as well as our social media pages , the most important ones to keep up with being Instagram , tiktok , our growing Discord page , as well as Twitch , where typically Jordan and I stream each and every Thursday , unless I go see like an M Night Shyamalan movie called Trap , but that takes my attention elsewhere . You can support the show a couple of different ways . You can head on over to Apple Podcasts , spotify leave us a five-star review . You can also go over to YouTube and subscribe , hit the bell icon for notifications and also leave those thumbs up . Those are incredibly beneficial , but if you find yourself wanting to get some extra perks for the podcast , maybe see some behind-the stuff as well as give some input on future episodes .

Speaker 1 44:42

Eric will actually let you know how you can do all of that . Yeah , so one of the things we're going to be talking about is what's coming up and down the pipeline for international feature and all of our series . So if you want to be involved in that conversation or you just want to support us a little bit further than those free options , you can always go straight to our Buzzsprout page and leave a donation , or you could go and take those funds to Patreon , where patrons like Stefan Briar , corey and T3 Kato are supporting us there and , in exchange , are also getting access to episodes like this early , with some behind the scenes pre and post show work that we like to do for each and every episode . So if you'd like to check us out there , we'd truly appreciate it . You can also set up on a free trial . There also is a free tier if you'd like to just see clips in advance of the episode release date . So there's so many options on Patreon . We're already starting to grow that platform double from this time last year , so we really appreciate that and we hope they don't leave us .

Speaker 1 45:37

Corey , please don't leave us . I'm just giving you an extra shout out one more time , cause I forgot about you that one time and I truly apologize . But with that being said , my name is Mr Eric almighty . That is my cohost , sadly . Eating a cookie feel the Filipino , and please don't forget . Eating a cookie fill the Filipino , and please don't forget . We release new episodes every Wednesday on the podcast and we've got bonus content on platforms like TikTok and Twitch All you gotta do is wait for it .

Speaker 2 46:06

So I heard you're looking for a go-to source for entertainment . Wait for it Gaming , Wait for it Anime .

Speaker 1 46:16

PLUS ULTRA . Mr Eric Almighty and Phil the Filipino yeah , they've got you covered , and all you gotta do is wait for it .

Speaker 2 46:38

This is the Wait For it Podcast .